The relation between the Antioch Church and South Indian Church before 16th Century.

Most of the writers states that the South Indian Church had no hierarchical relations with Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch before 16th century. But some English writers says there was a strong relation with Antioch before 16th century. As well as some Roman Catholic writers from India also states the same. Mor Ivanious, the first Archbishop of Malankara Catholic  Church opines the same. What is the real fact? When did the relation between the South Indian Church and Antioch Church strated?  

19 comments:

  1. Before 16th century there was relation with Antioch

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    1. No there was no relationship with the Antioch before 16th century

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    2. You are exact. There was a strong relation with Antioch before Patriarch of Antioch.

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  2. Malanakra Antioch relation started only after 19th century. Before no relation with Antioch and Malankara.

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    1. No it was started exactly in 1665

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    2. From the 4th century the Malankara Church was a strong hierarchical relation with Syrian Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch.

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  3. We have evidence that in the 8th century the Indian Church had its Primate known as "The Metropolitan and the Gate of All India" a title adopted presumably under Islamic influence. The Vatican Codex 22, written in Cranganore in 1301 gives the titles as 'The Metropolitan of the Throne of St. Thomas and of the whole Church of the Christians in India." The Indian Church maintained its autonomous administration. The Church of Persia had a tradition which acknowledged autonomy of Churches in its communion abroad. The Church in Kerala continued as an administratively independent community till the 16th century.

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  4. The section that sought to preserve the Church's freedom appealed to several Eastern Christian Centres for help in restoring its Episcopal succession. The Syrian Patriarch of Anthioch responded and sent to India a Bishop, Metropolitan Mar Gregorios of Jerusalem who came to India in 1665. The Archdeacon who had been declared in the meantime to be Metropolitan ‘Mar Thoma’ by the laying on of hands by twelve Presbyters was now confirmed by him in his Episcopal rank, and both of them worked together to organise the church on firm footing.

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  5. ‘Mar Thoma IX’ came to the scene, but was soon replaced by Mar Dionysius II Malankara Orthodox Church had felt the need of assistance for establishing systematic education for its clergy, teaching the people in the faith, instructing the clergy in properly celebrating the liturgical services and above all assistance in the maintenance of the Episcopal succession intact. But the Orthodox Church maintained its autonomous administration and life under local leadership.

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  6. Even the help from the Antioch Syrian Patriarch was without any idea of formally submitting to his jurisdiction, but only for an over all spiritual supervision and of keeping to a friendly relation. There were differences of opinion over the authority of the Patriarch in the Malankara Church and it created certain difficulties. But the Church has always been successful in maintaining its freedom and never allowed any foreign domination.

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  7. Only by 1665 after the arrival Mar Gregorious from Antioch relation between that church & Malankara church started. before that there is no relation with that church by our church. if so, years after only West Syriac liturgy implemented here in Malankara.

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  8. Check out this video on YouTube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8QP_2ZRO0M&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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  9. The above is fiction-the evidence from Christian antiquity is overwhelming. A bishop from Edessa (under Patriarch of Antioch) arrived in AD 345 to Kerala. The Knanaya church exists today as the 'direct descendants' of the people who came with the people traveling with this bishop. In the 8th century Mor Arphot and Mor Sabor came to Kerala. A very ancient church commemorates their missionary activity. In the 1600's we have the Koonen Kurish Oath (oath of the bent cross) where 25000 people/families pledged to remain faithful to the patriarch of Antioch- how could all the people take such a pledge if there was no relationship with Antioch for generations-Facebook?
    Of course the canons of the council of Nicea and subsequent ecumenical councils recognized and acknowledged the Patrarch of Antioch's authority over all the East, including India and all the way to China. There was influence from Persia/Mesopotamia over the years as well, from those who broke from the Patriarchate and those who stayed loyal. The problem for a certain faction in India is that they don't want to accept the full history, only portions that support their side because they want to deny the Patriarch and have their own 'ethnic church' free of 'foreign domination.' The charges are baseless since the church has always been autonomous, only seeking to keep the unity of the one holy, universal, and Apostolic faith by folllowing the successor of St. Peter in administrative matters. One main problem we have in record keeping us that the Portuguese Catholics came, attempted to take over the entire church, and burned all our books in the process. Hence, people can easily make things up in an information vacuum.

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  10. The above is fiction based on a factional interpretation of history. The Church of Antioch has enjoyed the liberty of the one holy, universal, and Apostolic faith in every sphere of its jurisdiction, whether the Middle East,Persia, India, and up unto China.In AD 325 and onward, the Nicene council and subsequent ecumenical councils acknowledged the Patriarchate of Antioch's jurisdiction over all the East. In AD 345 we find a bishop from Edessa (Joesph) along with a merchant Thomas who came and firmly established the connection between the Antiochian church and Kerala India. (St. Thomas the Apostle was the first to evangelize, but left no successors). In the 8th century we find Mor Arphat and Mor Sabor visiting and strengthening the faithful. In the 1600's we have the Koonen Kurish Oath (Oath of the Bent Cross) where 25000 families/people pledged their allegiance to the Patriarch of Antioch. These represented families who members were Syraic Orthodox for generations -otherwise how would they organize? Lastly we have the constitution of the erstwhile Indian Orthodox faction, which states that the Patriarch of Antioch is their head, and a ruling from the Supreme Court of India, which clearly states that the Indian church is an integral part of the Universal Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch. The matter is complicated because there are real influences from Persia, both from Syriac Orthodox and from Nestorian sources, and by the fact that the Portuguese Catholics burned all our books and records after the synod of Diampier (1599), where the Orthodox were declared heretics by the invaders. The Koonan Kurish Oath was in direct response to the Catholics allegedly killing the Patriarch who was traveling to assist the Church being persecuted by the Portuguese (ad 1665).

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    1. If exactly say from Acts of Apostles, The Church at Antioch was established by Bernabas and not by St. Peter. But the Church in Indian was established by St. Thomas, the Apostle. Though the Bishops from Edesaa were assisting the St. Thomas Christians, the later never recognised Nestorianism as evidenced by the names of Churches in the early centuries (all as St. Mary's Church). It is a fact that the Patriarch of Antioch was invited for help and in 1665 Mar Gregorios visited Malankara but this cannot be a reason for surrendering the Church before Antioch. The Church in India was always an independent Church. No doubt, the Hon'ble Supreme Court of India also admitted it.

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  11. there is a web link in one of the posts in this thread...

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  12. Threre was no relations

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  13. Please read the following malayalam information

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